Fairytale of New York - The F-word

[Tisch]

I thought it was ALRIGHT. I won't be thinking of it for years to come.

Not to open up that TOPIC but just to say I definitely could've done without the F-word and the :O reactions. It's halfway through the second verse so could have very easily been cut if they wanted.

 

[cwej]

I am so torn on the F word thing. I think it was true to the characters, but I can see the other argument too.

 

[VoR]

I appreciate that it's probably my most problematic opinion, but I find the annual puritanical outrage over Fairytale of New York to be incredibly tiresome.

 

[Tisch]

Agreed. It seemed much more pronounced this year than previous.

 

[octophone]

I appreciate that it's probably my most problematic opinion, but I find the annual puritanical outrage over Fairytale of New York to be incredibly tiresome.

I wish people would realise that you're not supposed to like either of the characters in FTONY. But anyway, let's not threadcrap...

 

[Sheena]

I am entirely in disagreement and I find it BIZARRE that anyone of OUR LOT should think otherwise, other than the likelihood that everyone loves Kirsty.

The song happened 30 years ago, agreed, get over it, but in a world where the n-word doesn’t get played, neither should “faggot”, whatever its original intended meaning.

 

[lolly]

Didn't Kirsty reportedly refuse to sing faggot and replace it with braggart in her later years?

 

[Sheena]

Didn't Kirsty reportedly refuse to sing faggot and replace it with braggart in her later years?

Which SAYS IT ALL.

 

[Sheena]

If you take the n-word as an example again, that’s been reclaimed by people of colour in music WAY more than “faggot” but still gets bleeped in that context. Whatever the intended meaning of “faggot” (and “old Irish saying” my arse), it remains a blatant disregard for our community to leave it uncensored on the radio/tv,

 

[Cerro de Casa]

I couldn't agree more with @Sheena. There is nothing 'puritanical' about it. Frankly, I find it more outrageous not to be offended by it.

 

[Cerro de Casa]

I don’t think I even cracked a smile except for when Dawn appeared.

Oh and yeah, pretty much.

 

[lolly]

Which SAYS IT ALL.

I think I read it somewhere. That's not to say it's true.

 

[Lucille]

Here’s the RECEIPTS.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....york-top-of-the-pops-gavin-stacey-9261116?amp

 

[Peekaboo]

I love Kirsty and I'm sure she was a solid FRIEND OF DOROTHY but I imagine the change in the lyrics was probably more down to the BBC not wanting it on Top of the Pops than her...

 

[Diddy]

Are we all agreed we should change it to “you taped over Taggart” then?

 

[VoR]

I don’t really want to get into a whole thing, because it’s one of those things that people get so wound up about, and I doubt anybody’s going to change their mind about it now.

For what it’s worth though, I just think:

a) It’s a shame to reduce one of the most beloved and humane Christmas songs ever written down to a single word, especially when 99.95% of people who love it and happily sing along to it every year do so with no malicious intent whatsoever.

b) It’s just such a futile hill to die on. The song is never going to go away, and I think we’d all be happier as a culture if we just got over it.

c) What octy said. It’s hardly on a par with some of the genuinely hateful hits Eminem had at the height of his career, for example. It’s a character-based song. I’m very much against cultural censorship in general. I feel like it’s comparable to cutting the N-Word out of Mark Twain novels, rather than acknowledging it and having an adult conversation about context and how language changes.

d) I’m sorry if this is inflammatory, but I actually don’t think the F-word is a direct analogue for the N-word, and while I understand the logic, I find direct comparisons between the two quite uncomfortable in all honesty. One is specifically steeped in slavery and racial hatred, whereas the other has a much broader and more complex etymology.

e) While I totally respect that the word genuinely offends and triggers many people, as with all things, the twitter backlash feels about 5% authentic and 95% attention-seeking gays living for the retweets. It all seems to come from such a closed-minded place too. It's not 'Hey, let's have a conversation about this', just 'THIS IS DISGUSTING AND IF YOU'RE NOT OFFENDED YOU ARE A TRAITOR/SELF-HATING HOMO. I WILL BROOK NO DEBATE ON THIS.'

I do understand why people feel differently of course, and that’s 100% valid. It's just how I feel about it personally.

 

[straightorbroken]

Well it's never boiled my piss or anything (it's more of a gas mark 2 rolling of the eyes), but if it was the N, T, P or any other similar word that fires like a bullet, I don't think many of the people okay with "faggot" would feel as tolerant (and yes I do accept they may not all be suitable for comparison, but in contemporary usage they're all designed to take away human dignity, and identify a group of people as subordinate humans and inferior). I do have a soft spot for Kirsty, but a song I've always found rather drab subjecting me to a homophobic slur in this social climate? I don't think so.

*requests next grindr meet to use the word as much as he likes*

 

[Peekaboo]

I have no problem with the word in the song but it is true than in the episode it is played FOR LAUGHS. Matthew Horne's character looks at the camera and goes "OOOH" when Rob Brydon says it as if to imply "isn't he naughty, he said a bad word, LOL" which I think IS more harmful than in the context of the song because it

- acknowledges it IS a word that shouldn't be said
- makes the character look EDGY for saying it

 

[octophone]

The only reason we don't have a re-recorded version is because Kirsty MacColl is dead. Had that cunt in his fucking speedboat had the slightest regard for others, she'd have re-done the line, probably in the early 2000's. You'd still be able to buy and listen to the original on a Pogues album but you wouldn't have to deal with it in the queue in Morrisons.

 

[Christian]

AS IF Corden wasn't homophobic enough already without this.

What a CUNT.

 

[HeLikedTurner]

If people are outraged by an insult that one character in a song throws at another character, do we then go through every film where a character says that word and remove it? Same with books?

Quite frankly, I’m outraged that people are outraged. I’m a gay man and it doesn’t remotely offend me. Why? Context.

 

[Diddy]

I didn’t see it at all, but someone called James Corden a cunt and I appeared

 

[Sheena]

If people are outraged by an insult that one character in a song throws at another character, do we then go through every film where a character says that word and remove it? Same with books?

Quite frankly, I’m outraged that people are outraged. I’m a gay man and it doesn’t remotely offend me. Why? Context.

Again, this entirely misses the damned point. I’m not remotely offended by the word, the context or believing that Kirsty was a massive homophobe in 1987. I’m offended because society in 2019 thinks it’s ok to leave it in when they don’t with nearly every other “offensive” word is bleeped out. Why is that ok? And why the fuck does no one give a shit about that when it’s a direct slur on our community?

 

[Shirley]

It all seems to come from such a closed-minded place too. It's not 'Hey, let's have a conversation about this', just 'THIS IS DISGUSTING AND IF YOU'RE NOT OFFENDED YOU ARE A TRAITOR/SELF-HATING HOMO. I WILL BROOK NO DEBATE ON THIS.'

That's twitter for you though sweetcheeks. More in common with the D**LY M**L commentariat than it would LIKE TO THINK

 

[lolly]

Apparently there were 11 OFCOM complaints originally, although I'm sure more will hop on.

Does there have to be a certain number for a full response? I'd quite like one really. Not that I think whatever it is either way will please the other side - just that half the reason this bubbles up every year is because it's usually put to bed for 11.5 months.

 

[cwej]

Again, this entirely misses the damned point. I’m not remotely offended by the word, the context or believing that Kirsty was a massive homophobe in 1987. I’m offended because society in 2019 thinks it’s ok to leave it in when they don’t with nearly every other “offensive” word is bleeped out. Why is that ok? And why the fuck does no one give a shit about that when it’s a direct slur on our community?

Would the n-word be bleeped out after 9pm in a film where it fit contextually? It's used throughout movies set in times of slavery and wouldn't be bleeped out as far as I can tell.

 

[octophone]

Apparently there were 11 OFCOM complaints originally, although I'm sure more will hop on.

Does there have to be a certain number for a full response? I'd quite like one really. Not that I think whatever it is either way will please the other side - just that half the reason this bubbles up every year is because it's usually put to bed for 11.5 months.

No. There was only one complaint against Naga Munchetty when she was censured for calling a racist a racist.

 

[octophone]

A film with the N-word wouldn't been shown on BBC1 on Christmas Day. It's a different audience and therefore a different responsibility.

 

[Kala]

I think this warrants a split into a completely different topic.

 

[Sheena]

Would the n-word be bleeped out after 9pm in a film where it fit contextually? It's used throughout movies set in times of slavery and wouldn't be bleeped out as far as I can tell.

not sure, but it certainly wouldn’t be played on daytime radio like Fairytale of New York is...

 

[Cerro de Casa]

Again, this entirely misses the damned point. I’m not remotely offended by the word, the context or believing that Kirsty was a massive homophobe in 1987. I’m offended because society in 2019 thinks it’s ok to leave it in when they don’t with nearly every other “offensive” word is bleeped out. Why is that ok? And why the fuck does no one give a shit about that when it’s a direct slur on our community?

Agreed 100%. Thank you.

 

[octophone]

I think this warrants a split into a completely different topic.

Agreed. Done.

 

[octophone]

I'm genuinely surprised to learn that it is still broadcast uncensored on the radio.

There is absolutely an argument for restricting the broadcast of the original. Thanks to Twitter, we now have to be 100% for or against something but this is a classic example of where a mature approach is required.
No-one is asking for the tapes to be burned or permanently hacked, rather than broadcasters use a version that doesn't include a slur. You'll still have the original should you want it but you shouldn't have to deal with it on a long car journey or in the supermarket for the whole of December.
Also, no-one is calling McGowan or MacColl or any Pogue a homophobe. It's fiction, reportage, a well-observed conversation between two people who have fallen out of love and whose dreams have died. If it had been a short play, no-one would be calling for it to be banned. But also, no-one would be saying "No, it shouldn't be banned, in fact, we're going to perform it unedited on BBC 1 on Christmas Day at 8pm".

 

[floppet]

I heard it played numerous times on the radio in the run up to Christmas and every time the line had been changed to "you're old and you're haggard", I didn't hear the original version except from my iTunes.

 

[Sheena]

I heard it played numerous times on the radio in the run up to Christmas and every time the line had been changed to "you're old and you're haggard", I didn't hear the original version except from my iTunes.

Where? That version doesn’t even exist in studio form to my knowledge.

 

[floppet]

Where? That version doesn’t even exist in studio form to my knowledge.

It would have been Radio X, Absolute 80s or Absolute 90s. They're the only stations I have on in the car because I still don't know how to save other stations to the tab and they're the default ones that were already there. Gold, the first station, doesn't work any more and Heart only works intermittently (when I'm on the M61) so it was definitely on one, or possibly all, of those three.

 

[Pingu]

Where? That version doesn’t even exist in studio form to my knowledge.

They played that version a lot on Magic too. I think somebody has edited in her vocals from the TOTP performance.

 

[Sheena]

Oh well GOOD FOR THEM then.

I haven’t heard it anywhere in such a form but then I don’t listen to those stations...

 

[Suomi]

I'm genuinely surprised to learn that it is still broadcast uncensored on the radio.

There is absolutely an argument for restricting the broadcast of the original. Thanks to Twitter, we now have to be 100% for or against something but this is a classic example of where a mature approach is required.
No-one is asking for the tapes to be burned or permanently hacked, rather than broadcasters use a version that doesn't include a slur. You'll still have the original should you want it but you shouldn't have to deal with it on a long car journey or in the supermarket for the whole of December.
Also, no-one is calling McGowan or MacColl or any Pogue a homophobe. It's fiction, reportage, a well-observed conversation between two people who have fallen out of love and whose dreams have died. If it had been a short play, no-one would be calling for it to be banned. But also, no-one would be saying "No, it shouldn't be banned, in fact, we're going to perform it unedited on BBC 1 on Christmas Day at 8pm".

This post captures my point of view best, thanks for writing it!

 

[Tisch]

Radio X definitely played faggot uncensored.

It was pretty horrible to hear in all honesty. More annoyed at Gavin and Stacey though due to how easy it would have been to have truncated the karaoke to one verse and one chorus and have it not EVEN BE A POINT OF DISCUSSION, but no they had to go there, and here we are...