Fairytale of New York - The F-word

My hot take which no one asked for: The song should remain unedited mostly for reasons octy stated, but using it for cheap laughs on a show like Gavin & Stacey was a wank move.
 
Bi with infinitely more experience on the gay side, but can't say it's something I'm particularly offended by. That's not to say others don't have the right to be offended. But IMO it's not like the Dire Straits one where he's banging on about "the earring and the makeup" which is a lot more directly aimed at the gays.

I prefer "you taped over Taggart" obviously but think there are more important things to get worked up about like the relentless abuse LGBT people still face day to day especially if they do things like hold hands in the street (around here anyway). If we're pearl clutching too much (no offence, I'm borrowing their language) over a questionable word in a 30 year old song I worry that it makes the general straight public take us a bit less seriously on the more serious and contemporary issues. The "SJWs stifling are freeze peach" brigade don't need any more ammunition IMO. I feel that it's backfired a bit lately and the right wing pushback has given the country whiplash.
 
Cloud said:
Bi with infinitely more experience on the gay side, but can't say it's something I'm particularly offended by. That's not to say others don't have the right to be offended. But IMO it's not like the Dire Straits one where he's banging on about "the earring and the makeup" which is a lot more directly aimed at the gays.

I prefer "you taped over Taggart" obviously but think there are more important things to get worked up about like the relentless abuse LGBT people still face day to day especially if they do things like hold hands in the street (around here anyway). If we're pearl clutching too much (no offence, I'm borrowing their language) over a questionable word in a 30 year old song I worry that it makes the general straight public take us a bit less seriously on the more serious and contemporary issues. The "SJWs stifling are freeze peach" brigade don't need any more ammunition IMO. I feel that it's backfired a bit lately and the right wing pushback has given the country whiplash.
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But by ignoring it, it normalises it. It’s the same debate as when Chris Moyles used “that’s so gay” to mean “that’s so shit”. Did it offend me personally? Not at all- I’m as un- PC as they come. Do I think that was him desperately trying to push an agenda? No. Do I think that there were far more important things going on to rally against? Sure! But should the BBC be allowing a 14 year old kid who is worried and confused about his sexuality to sit and listen to stuff like that and normalise that gay= has? Absolutely not. Same principle applies here.
 
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So over Christmas I was out for drinks with a friend. We had just left a gay bar to go round the corner to go to another bar for a nightcap home. There is a bar across the street from the bar we left which has a large smoking terrace directly outside. As we left, two young guys starting heckling us and calling us 'lousy faggots' - now this wasn't in a joking manner. We ignored them and quickly made our exit. It didn't bother me that much, I have heard worse, but I think this proves a point that the term is still being used as an insult, and unlike the N-word, faggot hasn't really been reclaimed by the gay community in the way the word queer has.

As for Gavin and Stacey - I have never seen it as I fucking HATE James Corden. However, I was considering giving the whole thing a go, but there is no way now. I think THIS irks me more than being in Fairytale of New York! The BBC should really know better by now and the fact the show was the biggest success of Christmas and has had great reviews saddens me that people still think it's acceptable in this day and age to use the word, whether it's for a cheap laugh or not.
 
I just don't see the harm in editing it (or re recording if that was ever possible). It hardly is crucial to the song, bar people shouting it out for laughs, and if it offends people for valid reasons then surely that's enough.

I understand that there are clear differences between the n-word and faggot, but one having a darker historical significance hardly makes it acceptable to normalise the other. Like it or not the word is steeped in abuse and discrimination. We're not talking about queer people reclaiming it, we're talking about 'regular' (in heavy inverted commas) straight people shouting it out in bars and slapping each other's backs over it cause it's oh so hilarious.

We're at the point now - at last - when people are vilified for using faggot and similar words in a social context. I was reading forum posts from 2011 yesterday, unrelated to this, and the difference was pretty shocking. It's important to take steps in continuing to deal with this.

Will it change the world to alter the song? No. Will it set the LGBTQ+ movement back years if we don't? No. But it's a small step. And there is a very clear difference between the n-word being used in a Mark Twain book versus faggot being played daily in a song that everyone sings along joyfully to. In character or not. People read novels in relation to the context and understand the characters on that basis. They don't do that with pop songs. 99% of the people singing it are hardly going to be considering whether the character speaking is supposed to be vile.
 
big ron said:
My hot take which no one asked for: The song should remain unedited mostly for reasons octy stated, but using it for cheap laughs on a show like Gavin & Stacey was a wank move.
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Absolutely. Again, timing. They might have got it under the radar at 10pm on BBCThree in 2008 but not on Christmas Day in 2019.
 
Cloud said:
I feel that it's backfired a bit lately and the right wing pushback has given the country whiplash.
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I don't think it has backfired. It's the usual resistance to change. British people hate the notion of having ever been wrong about anything, of having ever done anything wrong and of being anything other than bastions of perfection and decency. Thus when their prejudices are challenged, they become incredibly defensive - this is largely because of the media and how Britain portrays itself, ignoring its war crimes, the 10 million excess deaths in India under the Raj etc. Most people know there are skeletons in the closet and how dare you go looking for the key.

"Oh so I can't sing the word "faggot" now, is that it???" Well, yes. Not without context or justification anyway and "it's Christmas!" doesn't cut it.

If we give in on the "small" things, it pushes back progress on the big things. And anyone who thinks the advances in LGBT rights aren't in the course of being rolled back is due to a shock. That case where the transphobe tried to get the legal right to discriminate would have destroyed LGBT rights in the UK, not just legitimised transphobia. This constant moaning from the right about social progress has be fought on all fronts, not just the so-called big battles.
 
866 complaints received now. And the BBC has issued another statement defending the use of it:

"'Fairytale of New York' is a well-established, much-loved Christmas song which tells the story of a troubled couple in 1940s New York. The descent of their relationship is reflected in the increasingly abusive and offensive terms they use to address each other; insults which are intended to reflect the language that such characters might have used in that era.

"The origin of the word includes a definition which describes it as a contemptuous and antiquated word for laziness, and the author of the song has cited this inference behind his inclusion of that line.

"While the word 'f***ot' is now widely acknowledged as having the potential to offend, the song never suggests or implies that this is, or was ever, an appropriate way to address another person, nor does it link it to homosexuality. Nessa and Bryn were seen singing the original lines and we can assure you there was no intention to offend viewers.

"We understand that some people will find it offensive in any context but we also recognise that the song is widely played and enjoyed in its original form. Ofcom have previously stated that they feel it is 'unlikely that audiences would widely perceive [the song] as a serious attempt to denigrate the homosexual community'."
 
Honestly they were shouting ‘faggot’ on the most viewed program on Christmas Day, how is this even an argument.
 
The people who defend this shit probably still want golliwogs on marmalade jars.
 
Lucille said:
Also ‘not intending to offend’ does not equal ‘not offensive’.
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I think that's the part which riled me the most. Because if they don't understand that, what hope is there?
 
Essentially, it seems to boil down to "it didn't used to mean that". Well so what? Language changes and evolves. In late 90's people would offer to "rip and burn" an album for you and an audience 20 years on either side of that period wouldn't have a fucking clue what you were on about.
 
And whilst it might have had a different meaning in the 40s where it’s apparently set, it definitely didn’t mean that in the 80s when it was written.
 
I think the word shouldn’t be broadcast so I approve of any progress in that direction but I also think the usual backlash against this will be... strident. Hopefully not.
 
Already seen some gammons kicking off on Facebook as if this is a BRAND NEW THING.
 
Which strengthens my theory that they’re only doing it to make the usual gammon (who don’t even listen to Radio 1) kick off. Why not just play the edited version, why make a BIG ANNOUNCMENT?
 
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Kate said:
Already seen some gammons kicking off on Facebook as if this is a BRAND NEW THING.
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Probably the same gammons who kick off and say it's RACIST to call them 'straight white men', but think they should be able to sing FAGGOT with GAY ABANDON.
 
Iguana said:
Interesting. BBC Radio 1 will play an edited version this year. Radio 2 won't. And 6 Music DJs can choose between the two versions.

BBC News - Fairytale of New York: BBC Radio 1 will not play original version
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54999375
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oh FFS. it's not a NEW SONG - it's a time capsule to a different period in history. I see no value in OVERZEALOUSLY CENSORING these things just in case the wallflower Karens or their little Ellas get themselves all WORKED UP.
 
I'M SURE IF THE SONG WAS "RUDOLPH THE RED NOSED N-WORD" IT WOULD BE EDITED WITH NO QUESTIONS OR ARGUMENTS
 
I could swear that shit like this and poppies are stirred up by some trolls or other every year to whip up more of the divisive left/right stuff.
 
I have always been baffled by why this is even up for debate. They recorded a new version without the word, which really should have been the end of it.

Also, it drives me up the wall that Radio 1 wouldn't censor it used as a slur in Fairytale of New York, but when Macklemore released "Same Love", they bleeped faggot on that despite it being an entirely different, and much more justifiable context.
 
ZenGiraffe said:
Also, it drives me up the wall that Radio 1 wouldn't censor it used as a slur in Fairytale of New York, but when Macklemore released "Same Love", they bleeped faggot on that despite it being an entirely different, and much more justifiable context.
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I am not familiar with this song. Was he having faggots and gravy for his tea?
 
Iguana said:
Interesting. BBC Radio 1 will play an edited version this year. Radio 2 won't. And 6 Music DJs can choose between the two versions.

BBC News - Fairytale of New York: BBC Radio 1 will not play original version
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54999375
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that’s just like saying, our younger audience are less homophobic than our older audience whereas our indie listeners are on the fence. So we’ll just react to what they want, as opposed to what’s right.

:goodgrief:
 
jivafox said:
Which strengthens my theory that they’re only doing it to make the usual gammon (who don’t even listen to Radio 1) kick off. Why not just play the edited version, why make a BIG ANNOUNCMENT?
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Yes, this.

I feel sorry for The Pogues. They changed it themselves within a few years and yet every year, they have this rubbed in their faces. If poor Kirsty hadn't died, they'd have done a formal re-recording.

We all fuck up, we don't all have it cast up to us as a national debate for 5 or 6 weeks every damn year.
 
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