George Floyd and the police brutality debate

The Moopy jury says

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lolly said:
Please do. I've seen a few different links and then get confused or worry that I'll give to the 'wrong' one.

And I'm personally all in favour of a moopy donation, if funds allow (@Star for update?) Probably also should give people the opportunity to object if they want to, as well.
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@Beverley @Indie @octophone

I'll have a look and chat with the mods. Perhaps moopers could donate into the moopy bank account and then we make one donation as Moopy?
 
ZenGiraffe said:
Do you know what I don't get, why have the police not realised the awful PR they're generating for themselves? It's clear they don't give a shit about the people, but they know that they're under a microscope, they have full hd footage of them doing this and it's only making the riots worse and the consequences more severe for themselves coming out of these riots. Surely self preservation would kick in and they would want to be seen now to be acting responsibly?
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Because like Trump, and like Boris Johnson, and like Dominic Cummings, they have been given free rein to do whatever the fuck they want for so long that in their heads they believe they are ENTIRELY invincible now.
 
i want to puke whenever i see white people complaining about how "violent" these protests are. "they should be more peaceful!" err yeah, as if they haven't been peacefully protesting for centuries. fuck martin luther king. at this point we have no other choice but to stan malcom x.
 
Tetris-Rock said:
I take your point that this is about race - I was just trying to emphasise that any complacent white gays out there could do with a reminder that the cops aren’t necessarily there for them too.
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I can't imagine anyone on Moopy being complacent about this issue to be honest? We're the most woke bunch of internet geeks I've ever known.
 
Ag said:
I can't speak for any of those groups, but I can imagine the relationships for each group are probably different from my experience as a cis white gay man. I don't think any defence of the police is a bad take, that's a bit childish, they do serve a purpose after all. Their actions should of course be up for scrutiny.
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i don't think it's childish to point out the way policing has, both historically and in the present, hurt certain communities over others. i don't see how a defence of the police can be, therefore, rooted in anything other than privilege. just because many 'good' cis white gay folks feel protected by the police does not make them worthy of that defence.
 
Star said:
@Beverley @Indie @octophone

I'll have a look and chat with the mods. Perhaps moopers could donate into the moopy bank account and then we make one donation as Moopy?
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Great idea. I was thinking perhaps we could donate to something in the UK as well as a bail fund in America. It feels important to acknowledge (and support) what is going on here too.
 
I was wondering about whether we should make a UK donation - maybe to BLM-UK.
 
cwej said:
I mean, I think you're being optimistic that he will be found guilty.

Please point me in the direction of an on duty cop being found guilty of murder in one of the tens (maybe hundreds) of previous cases of this nature? There's definitely been a few charges, but they invariably get off with 'was just doing my duty guvnor'
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Let me be clear that I don't think it's an easy case to prosecute against any member of law enforcement. I think this is an egregious example that was captured on video, as this isn't a gray area where force was ever necessary. The chief already advocated for the arrest for all of his officers involved (not just Derek Chauvin who knelt Mr. Floyd), which is a start, but obviously the attorney's office needs to take the initiative on that.
 
Beverley said:
also, police might appear to be queer friendly, but friendly to whom? are they friendly to black queers, brown queers, trans people? any defence of the police is a bad take.
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I NEVER want to see the police at any Pride event ever (speaking about French Police here)! They can pink wash themselves all they want they remain a bunch of homophobic racist CUNTS

ACAB
 
cwej said:
I can't imagine anyone on Moopy being complacent about this issue to be honest? We're the most woke bunch of internet geeks I've ever known.
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Not necessarily targeting Moopy with this message. Although I will say that I think there are more varied opinions here than other online spaces that i’ve spent time in! We’re all basically lefties (the famed BROOMHELGA ASIDE) but a lot of differences within that, and a bit more freedom to debate as a result.
 
I mean I think I'm relatively aware for someone approaching 50, but I'm aware I have blind spots, as evidenced in that sexuality/gender label discussion last week.

I don’t really have the discussions I see here with anyone else - so I'm all in favour of not making any assumptions or being complacent about what people on moopy believe or think.

I reserve the right to kneejerk post 'OH FUCK OFF' in reply, but I'm equally at home with someone calling me out on it. And I usually reflect on it and realise I've been a bit of a twat anyway.
 
Tetris-Rock said:
Not necessarily targeting Moopy with this message. Although I will say that I think there are more varied opinions here than other online spaces that i’ve spent time in! We’re all basically lefties (the famed BROOMHELGA ASIDE) but a lot of differences within that, and a bit more freedom to debate as a result.
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Fair.
 
If you don't think that Moopy is a bubble of liberal leftism then you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Obviously there's some variation in views, but most people are pretty close together when you look at the whole scale of views available.

I certainly don't post anywhere else that is more of an echo chamber when it comes to politics, even if we do disagree on the latest GAGA ALBUM TRACKS.
 
This was a dumb (off-topic) post - sorry.
 
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Beverley said:
Moopy is a bubble of WHITE liberal leftism, with some very strong centrist tendencies. It's the kind of leftism that has had to be repeatedly reminded to insert POC into the narrative, much like the mainstream left.
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Yeah far too many of them on this website. I've got shot down on here many times in 10 years as being ANGRY (including yesterday) It's alarming to see posters be so caring and genuinely thought provoking (I especially enjoy @Mugatu posts what an articulate guy/girl) in some threads and then just straight up VILE in others.

I read a quote today that white people really need to read:

"The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate, when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pulleys set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know/like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything" Scott Woods

I will say though. I've seen so many people ordering books/trying to educate themselves on these issues. It finally seems that people are realising to really be an ally you got to understand it, like truly understand it.
 
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Beverley said:
honestly, i want to write more about a few things in this thread, i'm really fascinated by it all, which is what basically makes me a nightmare to deal with. :D:disco:
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Bev I'm quite interested to hear more about what you have to say actually.

From what I'm seeing there is a lot of opinion in this thread, most of which is written by white posters with the benefit of privilege and a position of power (regardless of whether those of us who are white are aware of it or not).

I'm not casting aspertions on anyone - it's more a general point that we all live in a system that reproduces racial inequality and our institutions are particularly effective at this. Most of us white posters would consider ourselves to be non-racist lefties however we all collectively benefit and contribute to the reproduction of the system both explictly and unconciously. In some ways we are purposely blind to it - we've all been socialised in a society where historically and now, white people hold the position of power and control the rules of the game. We're rarely ever encouraged to reflect on that.

There is also a tendency for white people to shape the narrative from their own position which undermines or fails to recognise the particular experiences of POC. I'm seeing this a lot at the moment in the news coverage and social media reaction to the murder of George Floyd and the protests.
 
Logic? said:
Yeah far too many of them on this website. I've got shot down on here many times in 10 years as being ANGRY (including yesterday) It's alarming to see posters be so caring and genuinely thought provoking (I especially enjoy Mugatu posts what an articulate guy/girl) in some threads and then just straight up VILE in others.

I read a quote today that white people really need to read:

"The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate, when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pulleys set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know/like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything" Scott Woods

I will say though. I've seen so many people ordering books/trying to educate themselves on these issues. It finally seems that people are realising to really be an ally you got to understand it, like truly understand it.
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@Logic? that was pretty much what I was trying to get at
 
Logic? said:
Yeah far too many of them on this website. I've got shot down on here many times in 10 years as being ANGRY (including yesterday) It's alarming to see posters be so caring and genuinely thought provoking (I especially enjoy Mugatu posts what an articulate guy/girl) in some threads and then just straight up VILE in others.

I read a quote today that white people really need to read:

"The problem is that white people see racism as conscious hate, when racism is bigger than that. Racism is a complex system of social and political levers and pulleys set up generations ago to continue working on the behalf of whites at other people’s expense, whether whites know/like it or not. Racism is an insidious cultural disease. It is so insidious that it doesn’t care if you are a white person who likes black people; it’s still going to find a way to infect how you deal with people who don’t look like you. Yes, racism looks like hate, but hate is just one manifestation. Privilege is another. Access is another. Ignorance is another. Apathy is another. And so on. So while I agree with people who say no one is born racist, it remains a powerful system that we’re immediately born into. It’s like being born into air: you take it in as soon as you breathe. It’s not a cold that you can get over. There is no anti-racist certification class. It’s a set of socioeconomic traps and cultural values that are fired up every time we interact with the world. It is a thing you have to keep scooping out of the boat of your life to keep from drowning in it. I know it’s hard work, but it’s the price you pay for owning everything" Scott Woods

I will say though. I've seen so many people ordering books/trying to educate themselves on these issues. It finally seems that people are realising to really be an ally you got to understand it, like truly understand it.
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I literally shared this quote on FB today. It was the first thing I'd seen that I felt was relevant as a white man to post about it to my predominantly white friends.

I'm referring to the Scott Woods quote not your post.
 
The government are allegedly attempting to delay the release of the report that examines why BAME people were disproportionately affected by Covid-19

‘The source is quoted as saying there are concerns in Whitehall about the “close proximity to the current situation in America”, where protesters are demanding an end to police violence against black people. The source reportedly said it would be a “bad combination” if the report was released amid such tensions.’

Quite unbelievable that people are protesting systemic racism, and a report that examines that and (one would hope) holds the government to account is being withheld from the public. Are the tories that clueless? Sorry guys we’ll tell you when you’re ready to hear this information.
 
Anyone read or seen the film of The Hate U Give? It’s not subtle but it’s quite a good and easy starting point. Also generally an excellent film.
 
COB said:
Anything you see about police 'joining' the protestors or making symbolic gestures of solidarity is 100% bullshit btw:


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Yeah I was extremely cynical about those white saviour clips.
 
Yeah white saviour crocks of shit. You really have to think about what encourages these racists to want to become cops in the first place. It certainly isn't to uphold and protect citizens.I'd wage a bet 3/4's are getting in to that career and they know EXACTLY why.
 
It may have been a different case before Obama, but I do think people of colour are now very much part of the narrative of the white mainstream left in America. The narrative itself is the problem.

White liberals are firmly progressive on racial issues like affirmative action, diversity and immigration, even to the point where they're more progressive than actual black and Latino people. Elizabeth Warren endorsed reparations and said all of the right intersectional buzzwords, then ended up with a voter base of almost exclusively highly-educated white people. The media is full of self-flagellating articles about whiteness.

The liberal narrative is the problem because it conveniently ignores more effective, class-based solutions, even though universal policies disproportionately help POC. When you separate something material like class from race, racism becomes this autonomous, innate force that can only be dealt with individually (paraphrasing this Adolph Reed article). This reduces the potential for cross-racial, working-class solidarity (which we've seen in these riots) and prevents the structural racism maintained by capitalism from being seriously challenged. They're fighting the issue with their hands in their pockets.

This means there's a vested interest in Amazon tweeting about BLM, or Shell Oil sponsoring the 1619 Project (which has a long list of its own issues), or elite Democrats calling out protestors for white privilege. It pays just enough lip service to the existence of racism to satisfy the academics, leaders and professionals at the top, without really changing very much for poor people of colour.
 
Mugatu said:
It may have been a different case before Obama, but I do think people of colour are now very much part of the narrative of the white mainstream left in America. The narrative itself is the problem.

White liberals are firmly progressive on racial issues like affirmative action, diversity and immigration, even to the point where they're more progressive than actual black and Latino people. Elizabeth Warren endorsed reparations and said all of the right intersectional buzzwords, then ended up with a voter base of almost exclusively highly-educated white people. The media is full of self-flagellating articles about whiteness.

The liberal narrative is the problem because it conveniently ignores more effective, class-based solutions, even though universal policies disproportionately help POC. When you separate something material like class from race, racism becomes this autonomous, innate force that can only be dealt with individually (paraphrasing this Adolph Reed article). This reduces the potential for cross-racial, working-class solidarity (which we've seen in these riots) and prevents the structural racism maintained by capitalism from being seriously challenged. They're fighting the issue with their hands in their pockets.

This means there's a vested interest in Amazon tweeting about BLM, or Shell Oil sponsoring the 1619 Project (which has a long list of its own issues), or elite Democrats calling out protestors for white privilege. It pays just enough lip service to the existence of racism to satisfy the academics, leaders and professionals at the top, without really changing very much for poor people of colour.
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Wonderful post, and the same can be applied to LGBTQ progress; it felt like overnight when every corporation put a Pride flag in its window and painted its steps ROYGBIV in June. Just enough lip service to appear to be doing something, because to not had become inexcusable and unprofitable, but not giving the marginalized folks much else because to do so would be to relinquish their own power.

Not taking the conversation away from Black people, just saying we're masters at rebranding and renaming things: take abolishing slavery but introducing involuntary servitude as a punishment for conviction of a crime.
 
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There are so many videos of cops acting crazy around peaceful protesters, it’s sick

 
Cops arresting the store owners instead of the looters because they’re black

 
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