Labour: The Keir Starmer years

Sir Keir's won - are you happy with this outcome?

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To be fair, claiming that Thatcher realised "that politics must serve the British people" and unleashed "our natural entrepreneurialism" is kind of high praise. Some people might argue she served a very narrow subsection of the British people and sold off a load of stuff cheap to DAZZLE 'EM.
 
Yeah I've read that article, it was one sentence and he was hardly singing her praises. I'm calling click bait/hysterics on this one.
 
I just can’t support them with this loser leading the pack. I couldn’t tell you what he stands for or who he even really is.
 
untilted said:
I just can’t support them with this loser leading the pack. I couldn’t tell you what he stands for or who he even really is.
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I get that, but the only other option at the moment is a government that are literally stripping away our human rights and obsructing democracy(making peacful protest illegal, the disgusting war on trans people, the demonisation of people on benefits - they are literally people in the UK that can't and won't survive another Tory government).

They are already becoming dangerously authoritarian and if they somehow win the next general election then it will only get worse - theres no end point for them.

We need to stop them by throwing them out. Once we have a Labour government we can hold them to account, and take the fight to them if they don't deliver, but we can't afford to sit around and wait until we get "exactly the type of Labour government that we want" otherwise we will be waiting forever and meanwhile the Tories will make it harder, and harder for us to remove them from office.

I'm no fan of Starmer, but I wish people would think bigger with this and see the more urgent, pressing, situation with this, it drives me up the wall.
 
bypass said:
I get that, but the only other option at the moment is a government that are literally stripping away our human rights and obsructing democracy(making peacful protest illegal, the disgusting war on trans people, the demonisation of people on benefits - they are literally people in the UK that can't and won't survive another Tory government).

They are already becoming dangerously authoritarian and if they somehow win the next general election then it will only get worse - theres no end point for them.

We need to stop them by throwing them out. Once we have a Labour government we can hold them to account, and take the fight to them if they don't deliver, but we can't afford to sit around and wait until we get "exactly the type of Labour government that we want" otherwise we will be waiting forever and meanwhile the Tories will make it harder, and harder for us to remove them from office.

I'm no fan of Starmer, but I wish people would think bigger with this and see the more urgent, pressing, situation with this, it drives me up the wall.
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Oh absolutely, the current government is so beyond hateful it can’t return.

It’s just so, so, so hard for me to look past Kier. He’s basically diet Tory for me. Ultimately though, where else would my vote go? I’ve never voted for anything BUT labour. I’m not going to fence sit my way through an election so alas yes. I just think serious changes need to be made.
 
bypass said:
I get that, but the only other option at the moment is a government that are literally stripping away our human rights and obsructing democracy(making peacful protest illegal, the disgusting war on trans people, the demonisation of people on benefits - they are literally people in the UK that can't and won't survive another Tory government).

They are already becoming dangerously authoritarian and if they somehow win the next general election then it will only get worse - theres no end point for them.

We need to stop them by throwing them out. Once we have a Labour government we can hold them to account, and take the fight to them if they don't deliver, but we can't afford to sit around and wait until we get "exactly the type of Labour government that we want" otherwise we will be waiting forever and meanwhile the Tories will make it harder, and harder for us to remove them from office.

I'm no fan of Starmer, but I wish people would think bigger with this and see the more urgent, pressing, situation with this, it drives me up the wall.
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Starmer is further to the right than David Cameron. Starmer's Labour party is further to the right that the Conservative party of 2010 and probably that of 2015 too. We now have a Tory party who are basically the BNP/UKIP and a Labour party who are basically a 2017 Conservatives tribute act. Starmer is chasing the papers on immigration, benefits, trans rights and the NHS while looking at X/Twitter for what he thinks voters want while leaving their entire core support in his dust. He's so obsessed with the "Red Wall"'s shift to the Conservatives in 2019 - an easily explainable anomaly in a single-issue GE - that he has completely thrown basic Labour values in the bin. Look at Wes Streeting or Rachel Reeves - they're John Major or Theresa May era Tories. And there's a fair few who are just outright 2023 Tory but think Labour is a route to power and influence.

The result is going to be a General Election where we either move to the right or to the far right of 2019. How can one not despair of that? This country cannot survive another Tory government but a useless, do nothing appeasement Labour government will only harden the far-right rhetoric, potentially taking us into full blown fascism. Where is the hope? What can we actually do in a completely gamed, unfit for purpose electoral system to stop this?

I'm being asked to hold my nose and vote for someone who wants to criminalise my existence, destroy my sister's family and make my brother and sister in law's working lives intolerable. How about "fuck that"?
 
that's some hyperbole right there

Labour is now to the right of cons in 2010 and 2015? nah, sorry, that is just bollocks.

Sure, Labour are trying to win the next election, that is the mode they are in. And yes, they are way more defensive than they need to be at this point. But I think it will surprise a lot of people how radical they will actually be in government.
 
gggggg said:
Labour is now to the right of cons in 2010 and 2015? nah, sorry, that is just bollocks.
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Is it? Arguable, yes, but not bollocks.

Some highlowlights:

Labour Self-ID policy is to the right of Theresa May
Labour spending policy is the same as current government policy. (Rachel Reeves said as much)
Labour immigration policy goals are largely the same as current government, only Rwanda is a major point of difference.
Labour Foreign policy is largely the same as current government policy. (e.g. following the US on whether to call for a ceasefire in Israel/Palestine). They will meet the Greeks though at least (but not give them back their marbles)

Elsewhere, Labour retreated from many of its Green policies following a single by-election loss, reducing their spending commitments. And of course BREXIT.

I would be very curious once we have a manifesto how it compares to the manifestos in 2010 and 2015, because I think you could genuinely find Octy's point proven true.
 
What an astonishingly surface level reading of Labour's position.

They are trying to win an election, all the core machinery is currently set on that agenda. Neutralising any/all Tory attacks, and appearing to be a capable alternative. The electorate's mind is that of social decline and market failure. A successful Labour party need to apply a straitjacket to themselves solely for the appearance of being boring, safe and capable. A lot of this is basically irrelevant once in power.

You think Labour won't introduce a form of wealth tax? Or reform the labour market? Or commit to their original environmental policy (eventually)?

I'm not saying it's going to all rosy... but catastrophising is for the birds.
 
gggggg said:
What an astonishingly surface level reading of Labour's position.

They are trying to win an election, all the core machinery is currently set on that agenda. Neutralising any/all Tory attacks, and appearing to be a capable alternative. The electorate's mind is that of social decline and market failure. A successful Labour party need to apply a straitjacket to themselves solely for the appearance of being boring, safe and capable. A lot of this is basically irrelevant once in power.

You think Labour won't introduce a form of wealth tax? Or reform the labour market? Or commit to their original environmental policy (eventually)?

I'm not saying it's going to all rosy... but catastrophising is for the birds.
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Basically: "Don't judge them by what they say"

What a great way to choose who we want to run the country. :manson:
 
Auld Lang Zen said:
Basically: "Don't judge them by what they say"

What a great way to choose who we want to run the country. :manson:
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Yeah, well, as previously discussed, our electoral system is fucked.

BUT STILL, a radical left-wing government will never (and i mean NEVER) get elected in this country. It just won't happen. We are fundamentally a conservative country, whether you like it or not. That said, it doesn't take much to shift the dial on certain things to make life a hell of a lot easier for most people. That is Labour's gambit, and I think it will probably work.
 
the octy and the ivy said:
Starmer is further to the right than David Cameron. Starmer's Labour party is further to the right that the Conservative party of 2010 and probably that of 2015 too. We now have a Tory party who are basically the BNP/UKIP and a Labour party who are basically a 2017 Conservatives tribute act. Starmer is chasing the papers on immigration, benefits, trans rights and the NHS while looking at X/Twitter for what he thinks voters want while leaving their entire core support in his dust. He's so obsessed with the "Red Wall"'s shift to the Conservatives in 2019 - an easily explainable anomaly in a single-issue GE - that he has completely thrown basic Labour values in the bin. Look at Wes Streeting or Rachel Reeves - they're John Major or Theresa May era Tories. And there's a fair few who are just outright 2023 Tory but think Labour is a route to power and influence.

The result is going to be a General Election where we either move to the right or to the far right of 2019. How can one not despair of that? This country cannot survive another Tory government but a useless, do nothing appeasement Labour government will only harden the far-right rhetoric, potentially taking us into full blown fascism. Where is the hope? What can we actually do in a completely gamed, unfit for purpose electoral system to stop this?

I'm being asked to hold my nose and vote for someone who wants to criminalise my existence, destroy my sister's family and make my brother and sister in law's working lives intolerable. How about "fuck that"?
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To the right of the Tories in 2019? Or even 2015?

Sorry...but...how so exactly?
 
Also, again like I said before..I am not trying to suggest that Kier Starmers Labour is the answer to everything...they are not in power yet. If/when they get in power I will judge them by their actions.

But in the meantime we have an outwardly xenophobic, racist, bigoted, government. A goverment that is willing to spaff billions up the wall to send 200 desperate vunerable people to Rwanda(a known human rights abuser) per year, and imprison them there(a scheme that Labour has already said they will scrap).

We have a government that just other day announced its intentions to means test things such as state pensions ..there isn't an end point for them - where do you think they will take us if they are still around in 5 years time? They need to be chucked on on their arse.

The electoral system in this country fucking sucks, no denying it, we need reform(whether we ever get it is another question) - its bleak, I know.

But there is one thing we can do to start with and thats remove the extremists from Power - because thats what they are.

Again its bleak, and even if Starmer does win the next general election im not suggesting it will all be sunshine and roses , but I would rather fight Labour government in power than a Tory one(something I actually agree with Owen Jones on).
 
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Seeing the left so divided pains me, its one of the main factors that leads to the keys to Downing Street to a Tory prime minister more often than not.
 
And Emily Thornberry is such a meme here, because... wait, she's a pragmatic centrist Labour MP? YOU COULD SAY a small c conservative?!?!?!?!?!?!?
 
bypass said:
Seeing the left so divided pains me, its one of the main factors that leads to the keys to Downing Street to a Tory prime minister more often than not.
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AT LEAST the rancid boil of Corbyn has been lanced, and the oozing pus can helpfully go and vote elsewhere.
 
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and i'm sorry, anybody here on the Corbyn train ... and i'm bringing out the classics here... FUCK YOU.
 
gggggg said:
But I think it will surprise a lot of people how radical they will actually be in government.
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:D

no doubt, no doubt.

I don't see any reason to believe Starmer, Reeves et al are secret centrists with some progressive tendencies being hidden artfully behind their current rhetoric. the way they've spoken about immigration, trans rights, the war in Gaza, the economy and spending, and many other things that will make up their policy in government is indeed barely any less right wing than Cameron or May. they have lurched quite consciously to the right and the violence of their rhetoric a lot of the time doesn't disguise some secret intention to be "radical" in government.

people must stop deluding themselves. if the Tories are finally going to get the boot, we need a government that will be held to account and we need to know for sure what they stand for. five years of diet coke Tory will not only not cut it, it will just give the actual Tories a clear path back into power.
 
Jark said:
:D

no doubt, no doubt.

I don't see any reason to believe Starmer, Reeves et al are secret centrists with some progressive tendencies being hidden artfully behind their current rhetoric. the way they've spoken about immigration, trans rights, the war in Gaza, the economy and spending, and many other things that will make up their policy in government is indeed barely any less right wing than Cameron or May. they have lurched quite consciously to the right and the violence of their rhetoric a lot of the time doesn't disguise some secret intention to be "radical" in government.

people must stop deluding themselves. if the Tories are finally going to get the boot, we need a government that will be held to account and we need to know for sure what they stand for. five years of diet coke Tory will not only not cut it, it will just give the actual Tories a clear path back into power.
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So, we put up with the current lot and allow them to carry on with their current extremist rhetoric and take us into authoritarianism?

We allow them to continue ripping the country apart as we sit nicely and hope that next time we will the chance to vote in a perfect left wing goverment that delivers exactly what we want to the tee(which is never going to happen especially under a FPTP system).

We continue to allow them to sell of our national health service, leave our schools to crumble, send vunerable people to the opposite side of the planet? And pit communities against each other?

We allow hundreds of thousands more vunerable to die on their watch? Where does that leave us?

We continue to allow them to strip away basic human rights?

will we even be having a genuine democratic election come 2028/29 if they are still in power?

I don't believe that last statement is hyperbole at all, to assume otherwise is massively naive.
 
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