The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

Seriously the bottom line here is that Palestinians have done nothing except... live there. The same way that you and I live in our houses. For that crime they have been brutalized, killed, and expelled from their land since 1947 and any peaceful resistance has been met with violence. We can debate academically about this all day long (which is an immense privilege) but that really is the bottom line.
I don’t think this is a fair assessment. The innocent Gazans are victims now, and have been many times in the last 100 years, but you can’t say the Palestinians have done NOTHING wrong, when a lot of people have been killed for the crime of… being born in Israel
 
Can we say that the majority of those people were celebrating the slaughter of Jewish civilians, though? and not, instead, the first meaningful resistance against an overwhelmingly more powerful and murderous regime in our lifetimes?

Seriously the bottom line here is that Palestinians have done nothing except... live there. The same way that you and I live in our houses. For that crime they have been brutalized, killed, and expelled from their land since 1947 and any peaceful resistance has been met with violence. We can debate academically about this all day long (which is an immense privilege) but that really is the bottom line.

The point is that these two things are not mutually exclusive.

We could and should condemn all of those who celebrated the slaughter of the Jews (or even just the attack) without making any excuses for their behaviour but simultaneously do what is in our power to give the Palestinians the right to exist and live in a free country like anyone else.
 
I agree with you both - the Israeli lives lost are tragic -- they were innocent civilians caught in the crossfires of war just like Palestinians. And the vast majority of Israelis living today were born there, as with Palestinians. I truly don't want to sound insensitive to that, and absolutely nobody should be celebrating it.

But I'm saying there have been countless instances of peaceful Gaza protests over the past 75 years, which have been met with disproportionate violence by the IDF and far more Palestinian lives lost than Israeli lives. You simply have a side that is much more powerful than the other. That image of the map becoming more and more Israel and less Palestine over the years represent actual people being expelled, and lives lost.

So while there is clearly rampant antisemitism, which is indefensible, a lot of people at pro-Palestine marches are surely there to call for an oppressed group's liberation?
 
Just to touch up upon the western media bias, this is the BBC News homepage tonight…

It should be said how horrific the kidnap and deaths of the hostages taken is, but quietly under the story of one of their deaths is the story of the same hospital running out of water and oxygen, which currently has over 650 patients (many of which are critically ill) and is housing 5,000 displaced civilians :(
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Actually, I think I will take this as my cue to leave this thread and log out of Moopy for the foreseeable. I don't think the discourse in this thread (nor the previous one) is fair nor balanced.
Shame as I really appreciate your opnion.
I do get your decision though, as this thread is completely one-sided and biased.
 
I think some people in this thread have hijacked it to a certain extent to push their own views and opinions, what we all need to remember is that these views and opinions are influenced by outside sources as none of us are witnessing this first hand. Yes the media is biased and that is on both sides, we can all find articles to support what we want to believe but we need to respect each others views and opinions and not let our personal take on things reflect and influence how we respond to posts.

I think we are all in agreement that both sides have committed awful atrocities that have ultimately impacted innocent citizens. Regardless of who started it somebody now needs to end it and that does at present lie with Isreal calling a ceasefire, I also understand their hesitancy to do so given they have no assurance that Hamas would not commit similar attacks as those that initiated this conflict. However should they wish to pursue Hamas and try to eradicate them they need to find a way forward that doesn't have such dire consequences for the Palestinian people.

As most have already said it is going to be difficult to navigate going forwards to find a peaceful resolution that suits all parties due to the complexity of the situation.
 
terrible jokes aside, there's a tiring extent of Hamas-relativization in this thread.

the idea that Israel is an evil, conniving, and genocidal state seems to be launched from a place that undermines that Hamas is a terrorist sect that beheads its people. this, girlies, is a genocidal terrorist sect that murders Fatah members or any Palestinian who romanticizes the thought of a two-state solution, ergo peace.

Israel's current horrific actions should be seen in the light of "you can't negotiate with terrorists."

i don't condone the bombings, but i understand them. many people don't seem to want to understand the complex predicament that Israel finds itself in. they only want to believe that the Jewish state is inherently evil.

which is... kinda antisemitic.
 
Not sure who you’re referring to there Joanne but in those incidents I think you need to separate Israel from Israeli Government. That’s a very important distinction if you’re accusing people of saying it is evil and genocidal.

I also find it quite shocking that anyone can “understand” bombings where thousands of innocent people are being killed. I know you’re trying to make sense of something that is difficult to make sense of, but that’s where we probably differ. I’m sympathetic to the complexities of Israel’s position, but I’ll never get on board with their strategy or the excuses they make for it.
 
would you say that you don't understand the UK and the US bombing thousands of innocent people to end Hitler?

because they did end up killing tens of thousands of innocent people.

Edit: ofc i mean the Israeli gov.
 
would you say that you don't understand the UK and the US bombing thousands of innocent people to end Hitler?

because they did end up killing tens of thousands of innocent people.

Yeah I don’t understand that either. But I don’t understand war full stop.

Also I think it’s a strange comparison - this is not a response to the invasion and destruction of half of Europe, this is in response to an isolated terrorist incident. Yes it was horrific, yes they should absolutely respond, I think most people just think it shouldn’t involve bombing hospitals and refugee camps. They can argue the human shields story until the end of time - it won’t make me change my mind.
 
i understand, but don't sympathize with, the bombing of thousands of innocent Germans during WWII, because if Hitler's reign didn't come to an end, MILLIONS of innocents would have continued to be murdered.

it's not a response to an isolated terrorist incident, it's a response to incessant attempts to murder all Israelis. Hamas has promised to repeat 7 October.

in hindsight, i also think the WWII comparison is strange, excuse my 23 brain cells... but i hope i explained my point without coming off vulgar or inhumane.
 
terrible jokes aside, there's a tiring extent of Hamas-relativization in this thread.

the idea that Israel is an evil, conniving, and genocidal state seems to be launched from a place that undermines that Hamas is a terrorist sect that beheads its people. this, girlies, is a genocidal terrorist sect that murders Fatah members or any Palestinian who romanticizes the thought of a two-state solution, ergo peace.

Israel's current horrific actions should be seen in the light of "you can't negotiate with terrorists."

i don't condone the bombings, but i understand them. many people don't seem to want to understand the complex predicament that Israel finds itself in. they only want to believe that the Jewish state is inherently evil.

which is... kinda antisemitic.
this this this this this… this this this … this!!

thank you @joanne
 
terrible jokes aside, there's a tiring extent of Hamas-relativization in this thread.

the idea that Israel is an evil, conniving, and genocidal state seems to be launched from a place that undermines that Hamas is a terrorist sect that beheads its people. this, girlies, is a genocidal terrorist sect that murders Fatah members or any Palestinian who romanticizes the thought of a two-state solution, ergo peace.

Israel's current horrific actions should be seen in the light of "you can't negotiate with terrorists."

i don't condone the bombings, but i understand them. many people don't seem to want to understand the complex predicament that Israel finds itself in. they only want to believe that the Jewish state is inherently evil.

which is... kinda antisemitic.

Too much whataboutary. You can be vehemently opposed to hamas while still being repulsed by israels murder of innocent children. They’re equally awful, and thats before you get into the nuance.
 
Too much whataboutary. You can be vehemently opposed to hamas while still being repulsed by israels murder of innocent children. They’re equally awful, and thats before you get into the nuance.

innocent children dying on both sides is equally awful, but there's no whataboutism in the claims that Hamas is using its people as human shields and this is not a "normal war" as Hamas believes that Palestinians who get killed go to heaven and are used in a merciless propaganda machine to make Israel look genocidal.

and it's working.
 
innocent children dying on both sides is equally awful, but there's no whataboutism in the claims that Hamas is using its people as human shields and this is not a "normal war" as Hamas believes that Palestinians who get killed go to heaven and are used in a merciless propaganda machine to make Israel look genocidal.

and it's working.

So hamas using them as human sheilds means they deserve to die?
 
I read the posts and discussions overnight after I logged out. Thank you all (moderators, posters alike) for recognising that this is a more nuanced discussion.
 

Those in al-Shifa include at least 300 patients, some or most of them in serious or critical condition, as well as thousands of displaced families.

It also includes “at least 35 premature babies who already for eight days now have been out of their incubators because of the lack of oxygen and the lack of electricity”, ElSayed said. There were 39 babies who had been left without incubators; four died late on Friday and five are severely ill now, our correspondent added.

“There is no transportation means in Gaza City and the northern parts because of a lack of fuel. So people are expected to evacuate on foot. And doctors are telling us it’s impossible to evacuate with this many people on foot.”
 
We have to somehow support a highly immoral army, a western military outpost that cover up their incompetence by more fabrications and lies, more massacres, more dead children and babies, indiscriminate killing where nothing is OFF limit for 40 days now. It's either you tolerate that or youre ANTI-SEMETIC. Its akin to being told TO suppport ISIS or you're ISLAMOPHOBIC.

What kind of impossible situation is that?
 
comparing the Israeli government to ISIS is wild.

ISIS wants to kill all infidels, "fake Muslims" (so 99.999% of Muslims according to them), and all Westerners.

Israel wants to kill all Hamas members, in self-defence, and sadly doesn't have sympathy for innocent Palestinians who die as a result.

one is a democratic state that acts aggressively and makes huge mistakes.

the other is a terrorist group that wishes the death of 99.999% of the world, including the vast majority of Muslims.
 
one is a democratic state that acts aggressively and makes huge mistakes.

the other is a terrorist group that wishes the death of 99.999% of the world, including the vast majority of Muslims.
what the fuck. what is this insane false equivalance?

a "democratic state" that "makes mistakes" and only wants to "kill Hamas in self defence"? I can't believe you're not well aware that you're regurgitating Israeli propaganda here.

people have been framing this in a favourable way for Israel since the beginning, with the redundant calls for people to "denounce Hamas!". Hamas is a terrorist/extremist organisation. it goes without saying that they are deplorable. people in the West begging others to denounce Hamas is a diversionary tactic. look over there! don't look over here!

Israel's government is just that. a government. not a terrorist sect. they are elected to represent their people, but they are acting as a terrorist organisation in the vein of Hamas (except, you know, infinitely more powerful). a government cannot make "mistakes" that result in 11k+ civilian deaths.

enough with this apologist bullshit. look at how many Palestinians have died in the last fifty years, how many have been displaced, how the quality of life for those who have somehow managed to remain has been reduced from something fairly nice to a life lived among rubble and the daily threat of explosions. look at the pictures, see how life was in Gaza then, before bombings became the norm. this is not self defence. we must must stop framing this discussion in this way to get anywhere. the Israeli gov and the IDF are terrorists just as Hamas are. and the vast majority of suffering is that of the Palestinians.

to say this is happening because of a "democratic gov making mistakes" is at best wilfully ignorant.
 
the US has committed far worse war crimes in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc - would you say that the US is not a democratic government that makes mistakes?

in war, governments do make grave mistakes that result in thousands of deaths. the US is the biggest example of this. what i'm saying is as much "Israeli propaganda" as what you all are saying is "Hamas propaganda." difference is Israel wouldn't slaughter me, or you, for not believing in their propaganda, whereas Hamas slaughters their own for not believing in their propaganda. one of these things is not like the other.

stop gatekeeping Hamas out of this debate. you can't say "Yeah yeah Hamas are terrorists BUT" and then move on to talk about the innocents dying, as if it is not Hamas that Israel is dealing with. a few of you make it sound like Israel is intentionally out to get Palestinians. how's that for "Hamas propaganda"?

i repeat, Hamas has promised to continue surprise-massacring Israelis every now and then. how would you solve this conundrum? i'm not saying the bombing of Gaza is the answer, i don't have the answer, but you seem to have better answers?
 

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