The Israel-Gaza war and wider Middle-East tensions

Perhaps it would be helpful if we all tried a bit harder to distinguish between the state of Israel - which I guess implies everybody living in it - and the Netanyahu government, when having these discussions?

In fairness there have been a lot of (justified) calls to draw a line between Hamas and the Palestinian people, so it stands to reason that it's only fair to do the same.

Not sure if that's the answer, I'm just trying to find a solution that will make space for all sides of this discussion in a respectful and non-inflammatory way.
 
I've decided to stick to simply posting links and tweets to news and information I think is relevant to the ongoing situation rather than getting into any debates going forward, but I'm breaking that rule just once for this:
Perhaps it would be helpful if we all tried a bit harder to distinguish between the state of Israel - which I guess implies everybody living in it - and the Netanyahu government, when having these discussions?

In fairness there have been a lot of (justified) calls to draw a line between Hamas and the Palestinian people, so it stands to reason that it's only fair to do the same.

Not sure if that's the answer, I'm just trying to find a solution that will make space for all sides of this discussion in a respectful and non-inflammatory way.
I think this is a really fair point. I'd like to think it went without saying that when I spoke about "Israel" in this topic and the previous one it was referring to the government and military of Israel rather than Israeli civilians or - somehow - Jewish people generally. If that wasn't clear before, this is me stating it now.
 
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the US has committed far worse war crimes in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc - would you say that the US is not a democratic government that makes mistakes?

in war, governments do make grave mistakes that result in thousands of deaths. the US is the biggest example of this. what i'm saying is as much "Israeli propaganda" as what you all are saying is "Hamas propaganda." difference is Israel wouldn't slaughter me, or you, for not believing in their propaganda, whereas Hamas slaughters their own for not believing in their propaganda. one of these things is not like the other.

stop gatekeeping Hamas out of this debate. you can't say "Yeah yeah Hamas are terrorists BUT" and then move on to talk about the innocents dying, as if it is not Hamas that Israel is dealing with. a few of you make it sound like Israel is intentionally out to get Palestinians. how's that for "Hamas propaganda"?

i repeat, Hamas has promised to continue surprise-massacring Israelis every now and then. how would you solve this conundrum? i'm not saying the bombing of Gaza is the answer, i don't have the answer, but you seem to have better answers?

Where’s the Hamas propaganda?

I’ve not read a single article, statement or interview from Hamas. My opinion on the Israeli government has been formed IN SPITE of all the propaganda, not because of it.

If propaganda was working right now we’d all be singing songs to Netenyahu and thanking him for bombing the hospitals.

We’re not all as educated as we would like to be, and most people don’t really understand what is going on. But we pretty much all understand what a proportional response means.

This is not even close to proportional. That’s why Israel cannot win the PR on this one, and that’s why it’s absolutely laughable when they try. “Here’s a couple of guns we found under the table in this hospital ward where a dozen sick babies once lay” FUCK OFF!
 
I would implore anybody to read the descriptions of the footage obtained from the 7th October attacks (the footage itself is obviously too much to bear) and have that alongside in your mind when witnessing the horror in Gaza.

The Israeli government, ring wing and reactionary as it is, isn’t trying to commit genocide, but trying to root out the evil that exists within Gaza. The conflict is horrific, and the cost is unfathomable, but ultimately that is the state of play.
 
one is a democratic state that acts aggressively and makes huge mistakes.

the other is a terrorist group that wishes the death of 99.999% of the world, including the vast majority of Muslims.


While I agree with you on the difference between the two in theory (and will always be a supporter of Israel’s right to exist), the depressing thing is that Likud and its far right allies are as little interested as Hamas is in a two-state solution.
They have benefitted from and continuously encouraged Hamas control over Gaza (as opposed to handing over the control to the Fatah party, and by doing so preventing a united Palestinian authority with a credible chance to independence) among other things by allowing Qatar to pump billions into the Hamas economy through Israeli banks.

The ideal thing would be if both parts were voted out but sadly I can’t see that happening now.
 
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A useful thread explaining why we’re calling this genocide:

A useful image explaining why this is the least successful "genocide" in the history of genocides:

F_OJR1EXAAA3z9N
 
A useful image explaining why this is the least successful "genocide" in the history of genocides:

F_OJR1EXAAA3z9N

Are people really distributing that graphic as a way of saying Israel isn’t killing thousands of people?

I don’t know where to begin unpacking that!
 
Oh. Well it doesn’t make any sense. % growth has nothing to do with volume of people, Gaza has a tiny base. Also it’s from 1950 onwards so of course there would be growth over 70 years vs the last month of killings. So not really that useful.
 
I don’t understand what that proves?

it proves that the claim that Israel is committing a "genocide" is pure antisemitic rubbish.

no one is calling October 7 a "genocide" when 1,400 Israelis were slaughtered, but God forbid the Israelis attempt to eradicate the terrorist sect that wants to annihilate them while hiding behind civilians, then the word "genocide" gets thrown around. Saudi Arabia and Iran killed hundreds of thousands of Yemenis quite recently, and the word "genocide" wasn't thrown around then. not when al-Qaddafi and Bashar al-Assad killed hundreds of thousands of Syrians and Libyans either.

it's good ol' antisemitism.
 
it proves that the claim that Israel is committing a "genocide" is pure antisemitic rubbish.

No it doesn’t :D it really really doesn’t.
Saudi Arabia and Iran killed hundreds of thousands of Yemenis quite recently, and the word "genocide" wasn't thrown around then. not when al-Qaddafi and Bashar al-Assad killed hundreds of thousands of Syrians and Libyans either.

It absolutely was. What happened in Yemen and Syria was repeatedly labelled genocide.

Interesting you use those comparisons actually. You’re not far wrong about those.
 
.Saudi Arabia and Iran killed hundreds of thousands of Yemenis quite recently, and the word "genocide" wasn't thrown around then.

This is the kind of hypocracy that really gets to me. Where are the protests in the streets or the uproar on social media when that’s been ongoing for almost a decade now?

But if it’s any consolation, I don’t think its deliberate anti-semitism, it’s just pure Western egocentrism and colonial guilt at play when you only care for POCs getting killed if you think they’re being killed by western powers…and of course that guilt is used and amplified by the likes of Iran, Russia and Turkey to cause further polarisation within the West.
 
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it’s just pure Western egocentrism and colonial guilt at play when you only care for POCs getting killed if you think they’re being killed by western powers
Pretty much this. I said it in the beginning in the first thread. Western audiences love lording their perceived moral narrative over the rest of the world like their precious conscience is the center of the universe.
 
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Where are the protests in the streets or the uproar on social media when that’s been ongoing for almost a decade now?

there weren't any protests in the streets and there was no uproar on social media because the perpetrators weren't the Jews.
 
I personally think the use of the term genocide is pretty incendiary and completely inappropriate. It’s simply not what is happening, in any sense or interpretation of the word. Likewise I fear it’s use is being used deliberately as a provocation, which is, simply, antisemitic.
 
I personally think the use of the term genocide is pretty incendiary and completely inappropriate. It’s simply not what is happening, in any sense or interpretation of the word. Likewise I fear it’s use is being used deliberately as a provocation, which is, simply, antisemitic.

The same could be said for saying everything pro Palestinian is antisemitic.
 
The same could be said for saying everything pro Palestinian is antisemitic.
No, you don’t get it. Anything that is anti-Jew is antisemitic. You can understand how use of the word genocide might play into that.
 

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