Israel's participation in Eurovision 2024 (1 Viewer)

RJN said:
I am having a hard time putting this into words, so apologies if it doesn't make any sense:

A long history of anti-semitism is why Israel was created, and in my opinion, the reason that Israelis and also many other generally liberal Jewish people feel so defensive about Israel. The view that "the world only cares when Jews do it, not when it happens to us" is the context of why supporters of Israel don't care about the world's reaction. Its easy to say that anti-Zionism isn't connected to anti-Semitism, but when you look at the reactions and protests, I just don't think that is true. Statements like this downplay anti-semitism in my opinion:

I don't think that you specifically, or any other regular Moopy posters, are anti-semitic, but this is like a straight person saying they don't have a homophobic bone in their body, which I don't buy either.

None of this is to justify Israel's actions, but there are other nation's that do horrible things, and the idea that Israel is uniquely evil in the world partially stems from anti-semitism.

I'm sure every gay person can relate to the feeling of knowing that homophobia is involved in ways that can't be put into words, and that is the same feeling that I get from statements in this thread and on the internet and especially when phrases like "the anti-Semitism lie" are used
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I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but antisemitism genuinely baffles me. Someone being Jewish arouses nothing in me. I'm sorry if that's how it comes across. I entirely acknowledge that I can't understand your lived experience as a Jewish person.

I've made sure I'm at least a bit informed and I'm not just blindly following left wing trends and I feel I know enough to make statements against the behaviour of the Israeli government. I see the issue as one of repression and territory, linked to the very existence of Israel and Palestinian freedom. It just happens that the senior combatant is uniquely tied with a religion.

That all being said the antisemitism absolutely does exist within the cause. The antisemitism that swirled round Jeremy Corbyn et all made me feel nauseous.

The whole thing is packed with violence and hatred, that even trying to be rational is littered with risk.
 
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Funky said:
Israel are far from uniquely evil. They (the IDF to be clear) just happen to be evil right now. We can't ignore it just because other countries have done it before.
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I agree with this 100%

Funky said:
What I object to is the black and white argument made by many people (not you) that the reason most people aren't supporting Israel in their cause is because of anti-semitism.
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Again, I agree. Anti-semitism isn't a valid justification to kill innocent people of course, but I also think that a lot of reactions are black and white in saying that Israel is just doing evil things because of an inherent evil nature and not giving context or nuance to it partially coming from fear
 
GinAg (39) said:
I absolutely understand where you're coming from, but antisemitism genuinely baffles me. Someone being Jewish arouses nothing in me. I'm sorry if that's how it comes across. I entirely acknowledge that I can't understand your lived experience as a Jewish person.

I've made sure I'm at least a bit informed and I'm not just blindly following left wing trends and I feel I know enough to make statements against the behaviour of the Israeli government. I see the issue as one of repression and territory, linked to the very existence of Israel and Palestinian freedom. It just happens that the senior combatant is uniquely tied with a religion.

That all being said the antisemitism absolutely does exist within the cause. The antisemitism that swirled round Jeremy Corbyn et all made me feel nauseous.

The whole thing is packed with violence and hatred, that being said even trying to be rational is littered with risk.
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I appreciate this and I do understand where you, and other non-bigoted people, are coming from
 
VoR said:
There’s no way anybody on the Swedish team is going to be allowed to touch this with a fifty foot pole.
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There's plenty of Swedish artists who has signed various forms of statements on this issue, Jacqline for one. Of course it is strongly discouraged by labels but I don't believe SVT would interfere at all, they were very proud of what Loreen did in 2012.

I just don't think either of M&M have any clue what's going on, nor do they seem to care about political issues that much.
 
Hak said:
I just don't think either of M&M have any clue what's going on, nor do they seem to care about political issues that much.
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I’m sure this is true, I remember my message exchange with them about Russia and Ukraine

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I understand the impetus behind targeting the artists (at least en-masse - if Olly alone was to pull out :ken: then they’d just swiftly replace him with someone who doesn’t give a shit). I suppose the idea is that enough of them withdraw then it will cause a lot of issues for broadcasters and it may cause them to rethink their approach. However, it is ignoring lots of boring practical stuff, such as the fact that many broadcasters aren’t in the positions to take stances that contradict their governments, and that all of these artists will be tied to contracts that don’t just carry significant consequences for withdrawing but will also limit what they are able to say in a statement such as the one released today. I honestly feel that if any of them felt really strongly about not competing in a contest alongside Israel then they probably shouldn’t have put themselves forward for national selection, as it was quite obvious that no Russia-style ban was coming this year. I agree that the sentiments in this letter are super nothing-y, but some of the responses I have seen have been overly harsh - including suggesting Olly and these artists “don’t care about the deaths of 30,000 people.”

As with 2019, i’m seeing I see a lot of people calling for a boycott but I think the difference this year is i’m seeing a lot more fans getting involved. I understand quite a few people aren’t watching just out of sheer distaste and I get that, although that isn’t my stance. I have thought a lot about it personally come to a decision based on what I think an ‘effective’ boycott might actually look like in this context. I hold the broadcasters responsible - so I want to send a message to them that Israel should not be welcome in the contest. So i’ll be writing to them and my MP, won’t be watching any of the content via the BBC, have unfollowed all of the BBC Eurovision channels, etc. This doesn’t mean I won’t listen to the songs on Spotify to enjoy the songs and support the artists who are not responsible for this situation, or indeed that I won’t watch contest content via other, (probably ‘yo ho me hearties’) means. I am also planning some kind of donation linked to on Israel’s eventual points total in the final (because they almost certainly will qualify) but I haven’t worked out the details yet.

I regard this decision as totally personal though and am uninterested in making people feel bad about their engagement with it. I don’t think holier than thou shaming of people is a particularly effective recruitment tactic for a boycott. I don’t doubt that it is easy to skip on Eurovision if it is genuinely just one night a year for people, but honestly if not watching something you’re not that bothered about in the first place and having a go at people on social media is all you are doing for Palestine then you’re not doing anything for Palestine.
 
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Voodoo said:
Because they have double standards and are antisemitic, perhaps.
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If you think you can dismiss every instance of people taking real heartfelt issue with war crimes such as using famine as a tool of war by claiming it's 'anti-semitism', you are doing the long term viability of the Jewish state absolutely no favours whatsoever. You think the US is lying to Israel when it tells Netanyahu this shit is dumb?
 
It's entirely possible to draw the nuance that there is a lot of antisemitism in the movement (as a starter for ten - anyone just uncritically lapping up the most lurid claims in recent days of an 'al-Shifa massacre' without subjecting them to the basic scepticism and demands for evidence things like the baby beheading on October 7th received), and that Israel's actions at the moment are far, far, far out of line with the basic expected standards for a state and the things it should not do in a time of war.
 
I don’t think Eden Golan should be bullied, but at this point she has to have read the online discourse and know what’s coming…
 
I wish they’d actually articulate the entirely valid reasons why it isn’t the same as Russia/Belarus and their hands are tied, instead of trotting out disingenuous nonsense like this. Who do they think is buying it?

 
I wonder if they’re eventually going to get backed into a corner. If the war drags on it’s not only this year that’s going to be disrupted.
 
As much as I love ESC, there does seem to be a dark cloud increasingly building over this year and a lot of the conversation online has gotten really nasty in a way that totally dwarfs any of the fallout that followed Loreen/Kaarija

It's sad to say but part of me just wants May out the way now so we can move on.
 
I agree that it's not the same as Russia/Belarus - it's worse now, with the bombing of international aid workers.

Why would they try and defend it? It just makes them look more ignorant. You can't say "we promote tolerance and diversity" and not acknowledge that they already banned Russia for war crimes.
 
It's not even that they set a precedent by binning Russia, because I get why that's "different" or whatever. It's more that they trotted out the "bringing the contest into disrepute" line when doing so. Surely we are WAY beyond that threshold now.
 
VoR said:
I wish they’d actually articulate the entirely valid reasons why it isn’t the same as Russia/Belarus and their hands are tied, instead of trotting out disingenuous nonsense like this. Who do they think is buying it?

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Saying nothing would have been better than this.

At what point is Martin Österdahl getting door stepped? I know it's the EBU more than Eurovision that needs to change, but some intense pressure on organisers is definitely required.
 
Soldi said:
I wonder if they’re eventually going to get backed into a corner. If the war drags on it’s not only this year that’s going to be disrupted.
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It's not only this year that's going to be disrupted even if it doesn't. I suspect absent solid clear moves towards a peace deal a new regular norm has essentially just been created for Eurovision to be boycotted as standard so long as Israel are permitted to participate.
 
Funky said:
I agree that it's not the same as Russia/Belarus - it's worse now, with the bombing of international aid workers.

Why would they try and defend it? It just makes them look more ignorant. You can't say "we promote tolerance and diversity" and not acknowledge that they already banned Russia for war crimes.
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They didn't ban Russia for war crimes.

(it also isn't worse now than that situation - Russia literally launched an aggressive invasion and has imposed an entire war on Ukraine for two years now unprovoked on any reasonable grounds. Israel is committing war crimes and conducting military operations far out of any reasonable sense of proportion, but Russia is doing all that as well and attacked when it wasn't under threat in the first place.)
 
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They really should just have the stones to admit Russia got chucked out because enough broadcasters said they would withdraw from a contest with Russia in to immediately sink the economics of that year's contest if they didn't kick them. They made the decision in the space of a day and did not start from the stance of being all that enthusiastic about throwing them out!
 
Also has anybody else had a mental image of Netta airstriking the wrong city at some point
 
Penelope said:
They really should just have the stones to admit Russia got chucked out because enough broadcasters said they would withdraw from a contest with Russia in to immediately sink the economics of that year's contest if they didn't kick them. They made the decision in the space of a day and did not start from the stance of being all that enthusiastic about throwing them out!
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I didn’t know this (obviously) but yes they should just admit that. Not just honest but it’s a stronger argument. The other stuff, while good intentions, reads like carefully scripted propaganda!
 
Yes the FAQ answers are very "0/5 in a GCSE exam" levels of not answering the question.
 
Penelope said:
They really should just have the stones to admit Russia got chucked out because enough broadcasters said they would withdraw from a contest with Russia in to immediately sink the economics of that year's contest if they didn't kick them. They made the decision in the space of a day and did not start from the stance of being all that enthusiastic about throwing them out!
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This is absolutely it. If Russia had stayed in - multiple broadcasters could have sunk the contest. Had Israel been kicked out, Germany and the UK could (presumably) have come very close to sinking Malmo.

My starting point on this was that the two scenarios were different. Russia invaded entirely unprovoked / Israel (started) from a position of self-defence. Obviously that has become very difficult to hold to the more we learn, but we are where we are. Not a single mind is going to change either way now.
 
The post from the official Eurovision account on Twitter has only garnered 1k likes despite 2.5 million views :eyes:
 
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I like the rather stirring song and exciting whirly thing in the video but why turn up if you're going to get sausages* thrown at you

*OR WHATEVER THE SWEDISH EQUIVALENT IS
 
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