Beyoncé - act ii: COWBOY CARTER

Jark there are so many artists before Beyonce that did that Afro house sound. It really doesn’t sound that urgent or special. And she tries to do this trap-soul vocal over it, which I credit her for trying something fresh and original, but for someone who grew up with house music having a gospel, disco or R&B vocal, and especially considering Beyonce is capable of all of those types of vocal and chose not to go there, is just a missed opportunity for me.

The second half of Pure/Honey is the album’s sweet spot; if she’d focused more on that I would have liked it more. That flat vocal she does, the style Drake popularised and so many artists have emulated, just does my tits in. I hate it.
 
I'm not sure Beyonce is the cross to die on here. Regardless of whether the tunes are there or not (subjective, naturally), Beyonce the person is an otherwise empty vessel for the creativity of others.
 
Guys taste and opinion is personal unless you disagree with Jark, then you're wrong and obviously that's a bit dodgy
 
Kratz said:
I'm not sure Beyonce is the cross to die on here. Regardless of whether the tunes are there or not (subjective, naturally), Beyonce the person is an otherwise empty vessel for the creativity of others.
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I’ve heard this said by many people (not just on moopy) and I do massively disagree with this. I get that whenever an artist is so massive you’re going to gain the attention of not just those that love you but those that don’t, and those people are going to struggle to understand the hype. That’s fine. But having seen Beyonce live twice and being a huge fan of her work from Crazy In Love to Drunk In Love, I’d still argue that she is a once in a generation talent, who deserves to be recognised (and will be recognised) among the pop icons of the past. She is heavily involved in her craft, she is an exceptional performer and businesswoman. Even when I don’t always like her music I recognise that. She is not a face through which a marketing machine creates music. She is the real deal.
 
I definitely don't think she's an 'industry plant' or anything like that, but she's always been primarily about the branding for me. The music always seems secondary. Kinda "All style no substance" situation.
 
Kratz said:
I'm not sure Beyonce is the cross to die on here. Regardless of whether the tunes are there or not (subjective, naturally), Beyonce the person is an otherwise empty vessel for the creativity of others.
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hard disagree. and again statements like this say to me you haven't really learned much about Beyoncé, and kind of illuminate what I'm saying generally in this thread which is people seem to have preconceptions of many kinds.

if you watch the tour film it's very clear that every single element of the creative on her show is something she personally has a say in or a vision for, right down to lighting. and that's just when she's touring the music, not making it. it's not only an annoying reprise for old misogynistic critiques of female popstars, but also simply inaccurate to say she's just a vessel for others' creativity. she is essentially creative directing all aspects of her entire career in music. you can't outsource that.
 
RJN said:
and what is that suspicion that you keep implying?
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I thought I was quite explicit about it about four posts above yours - the suspicion I'm implying is that these sweeping statements about how the album is not joyful or not catchy or whatever the critique is come from people who haven't actually listened much/perhaps at all, or have done so with a closed mind. I'm quite entitled to think that!
 
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GinAg (39) said:
Oh it's misogyny!
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you're desperate for a fight today huh!

yes it's misogyny to deny that a woman with evident deep creative involvement in her work has no creative talents. the implication that somewhere behind the scenes a man is doing the real work. you must have heard that one before dear, you've been around a while
 
Jark said:
you're desperate for a fight today huh!

yes it's misogyny to deny that a woman with evident deep creative involvement in her work has no creative talents. the implication that somewhere behind the scenes a man is doing the real work. you must have heard that one before dear, you've been around a while
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Says you, coming for literally everyone's taste!

No need to patronise, @RJN asked the question in the first place and I think we were all wondering what you were implying. It could easily have been race.

And I'm well aware of that trope. I deal with that shit from 13 year old boys in my job, who idolise Andrew Tate. Yes I've been around a while, I'm quite aware of how the world works, but I don't deal with allusions.

I never said I thought she lacked creativity. I think she's a magnificent talent. She could probably make music I like more, but she chooses to make music she likes. And that's fine.
 
this got a bit HEATED but I love y'all even if I'm not feeling your ENERGY on this particular topic. I don't think anyone is racist and I'm going to MOVE OUT THE WAY... into another thread now. 💘

coming up within the hour: jark loses his shit about Katy Perry again
 
Jark said:
I thought I was quite explicit about it about four posts above yours - the suspicion I'm implying is that these sweeping statements about how the album is not joyful or not catchy or whatever the critique is come from people who haven't actually listened much/perhaps at all, or have done so with a closed mind. I'm quite entitled to think that!
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That's completely fair, there's just multiple ways it could be read, so I wanted to see
 
Jark said:
hard disagree. and again statements like this say to me you haven't really learned much about Beyoncé, and kind of illuminate what I'm saying generally in this thread which is people seem to have preconceptions of many kinds.

if you watch the tour film it's very clear that every single element of the creative on her show is something she personally has a say in or a vision for, right down to lighting. and that's just when she's touring the music, not making it. it's not only an annoying reprise for old misogynistic critiques of female popstars, but also simply inaccurate to say she's just a vessel for others' creativity. she is essentially creative directing all aspects of her entire career in music. you can't outsource that.
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You need to be careful not to patronise people because they don't agree with you. I've seen the tour film, I have seen her interviews (where she comes across as vague and at times even rather vapid), I have noticed the songwriting credits where she is tacked on as the 10th songwriter. I'm not saying she doesn't have talent, she can clearly sing and dance, but I don't believe she is an epoch-defining creative genius.

Beyonce has no shortage of uncritical acolytes but there are many of us who just don't see it.
 
Jark said:
you're desperate for a fight today huh!

yes it's misogyny to deny that a woman with evident deep creative involvement in her work has no creative talents. the implication that somewhere behind the scenes a man is doing the real work. you must have heard that one before dear, you've been around a while
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I think there's an awful lot of FEMALE talent behind the scenes doing the real work. Does that make me a misogynist?

Then again we're living in a world where not giving Catfights and Spotlights 10/10 is now likely to get called 'suspicious' and 'closed minded'.

For the record I loved B'Day, 4 and self-titled. Renaissance is at times frustratingly undercooked.
 
Well this thread escalated fast. I'm can't wait for Stefani Joanne to announce her new opus - Moopy is always very balanced about her too. :basil:
 
I am enjoying Texas Hold 'Em a lot, but why is there part of me that is pining for Bey's That Don't Impress Me Much / Man! I Feel Like A Woman? With some Afrobeat and trap vocals, obviously.
 
Mother Superior said:
For the record I loved B'Day, 4 and self-titled. Renaissance is at times frustratingly undercooked.
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I guess that's why I Love Renaissance so much, I've always felt it's B'Day's younger sister but only more curated, carefully crafted, and clinical, unlike the former which is so unhinged and desperate; sometimes I wonder how Bey got away with it but at the same time, I'm grateful we got it in the end because it's just what she needed at the time. She became much more interesting and exciting to me once she ditched the gloopy schlocky ballads for good (and that's why I don't like the Sasha Fierce album at all).
 
Jark said:
whatever is really being judged here I don't think it's the music.
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I'm not really sure what you were accusing me of here.

But.

This thread has become a lot more fun to read, and I'm now going to start lighting more fires and dismissing LOTS MORE established gay faves as OLD TOOT

To me, Renaissance sounded like nothing others before her hadn't already done. Cuff It could frankly have been an Ultra Nate cover with only vaguely more interesting vocal stylings. And whilst some tracks had the beginnings of a fun piece of pop (Virgo's Groove comes to mind), they ultimately go nowhere.

But I concede I hadn't sat down and STUDIED the record as if it were a thesis.
 
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Jark said:
whatever is really being judged here I don't think it's the music. average at best/meandering old toot my TIGHT ARSE
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What absolute horseshit.

I’ve loved pretty much everything she’s done until Renaissance but it left me cold. And that’s an entirely valid opinion without you resorting to accusations like this just because they don’t marry your own. I’m properly offended by the implication of this.
 
16 Carriages is so lovely I almost cried. It wasn't quite beautiful enough to induce tears, but it almost went there.

Also, for what it's worth I was always very "Beyonce-is-a-plant" but it has become very clear from Lemonade onward she's anything but. She is definitely the primary driver behind her marketing and image.

I mean, she's BEYONCE. I'd be surprised if she wasn't throwing her weight around at this point.
 
Oh and for the most part I think Renaissance is shit.

Lemonade is her opus really, for me anyway.
 
Lemonade, 4, and Beyoncé are all infinitely better records than Renaissance.

And if we're talking "joy", Beyonce doesn't even have the most "joyous" dance record by a DC member (hi When Love Takes Over)
 
PURE/HONEY is the only one from Renaissance I ever really go back to.

Lemonade however... I could rinse it forever and a day!
 
Did Beyonce approve that content? :D it’s so CHEAP! The split frame! The mixed fonts! The pixelation!

It looks like a Home Bargains campaign!
 
Shoat said:
Lemonade, 4, and Beyoncé are all infinitely better records than Renaissance.

And if we're talking "joy", Beyonce doesn't even have the most "joyous" dance record by a DC member (hi When Love Takes Over)
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When Love Takes Over
Commander
Work

Beyoncé couldn’t on her best day!
 
incredible. country and guitar/folksy stuff is massive globally right now
 
As I think I said before in one of these Beyonce threads if she wants to get back to number one she has to release a song more akin to her earlier material. I loved Renaissance, and not so much Lemonade but the only Beyonce the general public as a whole want to listen to is the more watered down commercial Bey.
 
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